They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. I do wonder why so many people continue to support R.C. and me that we had a problem with the Bible. Has that been reported on or discussed? We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. I was never banned from her blog- you may have misunderstood my post on that at my blog. But we're not there yet. It took rescue workers 2-1/2 hours to cut us out of the wreckage. You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. Thats wonderful news! 3. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. Regardless of if Sproul Jr is a drinker or not, I am having a hard time mustering sympathy for him, if its true hes unfairly ostracizing people from his church, using adultery sites, etc. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. In time, the spouse of a problem drinker will have clarity as to how to proceed. Why would they have to go to a church, all so a pastor could do that same Googling to give them the names and addresses? 2 By no means! I pray the Lord will heal you of all your wounds, sir. It was crystal clear. Daisy wrote: Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. She did not show that she had no clue. Very true. Ive said so. She had trouble finding work, but volunteered at church and around town about 60 hours a week. Mae wrote: Hi Daisy, Sproul Jr. and even his father Sr. Do you think that this is the best use of their contributions to give to Ligonier Ministries when they are used to support someone like R.C. Changed lives. I say I because it was just I. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. A question: When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. ), We tell our readers that we prefer them not to use the word codependent when describing victims of domestic abuse. No way to cure the disease, except to not drink. 2. Have the proper 501(c)3 religious authorities been properly notified? We chose not to publish a comment (or comments?) You and I dont have the compulsion to drink, so its easy for us to say just dont drink. But I know of many people including Christians who have fought that battle (alcoholism) mostly in secret. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. But her children have been wounded and scarred. You havent talked to everyone (not even close) so how could you make such assumptions? That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? I also said that down in the road, in his recovery (if hes agreeable to getting clean and sober), he needs to make amends to people individually that he harmed, to families, and to entire churches (including publicly up front) with the help of a sponsor(sober mentor) directing him in how this process should be carried out. Theyve paved the path to hell for their Precious. The consequences of their enabling are far far worse than if theyd just let him have to face the consequences of his bad life choices on his own. No, it doesnt always work. It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. I dont think we can assume that a person not mentioning getting treatment in a blog post means they dont believe in people getting treatment. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. God in his infinite mercy intervened and all three children in this home were saved. I responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. Sproul Jr. is receiving and that persons training/licensing. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. He has had serious chronic abusive and unruly behavior for decades. Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Would you please clarify what training you have, paid or unpaid, with substance abuse? Church attendance wont cure much of anything, but the people of the church should support one another through thick and thin. My wife walked this bumpy road with me and patiently ignored me when I reacted out of hurt. (BTW, I agree with her.). Can you please identify the comment? Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists,. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. I remember a friend teaching me to ask for sparkling water or ginger ale with a wedge of lime at a cocktail parties because it looked like something alcoholic Gave me something to hold in my hand, and kept the guys from trying to buy me a drink. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. I also think that churches, like employers, play a role in getting people with addictions into treatment. However, it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. He sounds arrogant and terrible. Those two do not go together. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. They should be more vivid. My uncle was a drunk driver. I will say this if this was just a pew sitter he would have been gone years ago tossed on the trash heap. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Then again for a period of time in my life I bought into leaders like these. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. His boozing and chronic bully behavior was going on long before the family tragedies. Let us with sincerity review our progress. . or a drunkard, [substance abuse] But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. The innocent must be protected. She was in a very fragile place. We must try to get help for suffering people: medical intervention AND psychiatric intervention. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). But doesnt seem all that likely. @ Velour: I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. Check on a story that seems radically improbable. It was as a college freshman that R.C. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. Someone earlier said RC Sproul Jr a psychopath. Heartbreaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; If its 2 and 3 he is being monitored somewhat closely and I assume is less of a danger to society, at least on the road. or a swindler [scams, cons] Of course enabling doesnt help, ever. Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. What is that about? That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. At some deep emotional level if I hear self medicating one more time used to minimize reasons, effects or societal responsibilities of alcohol abuseArrrgghh. I am glad for your growth that you have shared with us from codependency that your mother taught you that you had to do, something she apparently learned to survive. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Under Sproul's direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects. and me: That is what I was responding to. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. See how much jail time the gossipers serve. A sermon wont cure my chronic conditions, but it might have an insight that helps me. My problem isnt with the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about how to treat addictions in the Christian community. By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. For R.C. I, on the other hand, enjoy a glass of wine occasionally. I believe God gave me a second chance at life, and I am so grateful! Or we edit the comment by replacing the word codependent with some other word, and then publish the comment. However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. When you brought up 1 Cor. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. Why not? I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Parish? Bike Bubba, wasnt he having problems before his first wife passed away? And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). How can a nature be crucified? I am even more concerned about her lack of education and information about addiction, including co-addiction (i.e. Nobody should pretend, or be told by his friends, that he can hold a prominent role in the body of Christ whilst drunk. Youve got some great insights. All people do. And guess what Yeah. I think that would apply even to alcoholics or people with other sorts of problems. He should face consequences for it. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. @ Deborah Coan: So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] How to Resign from a Church Velour wrote: Preach it sister! I hope it is true. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. However, it must have been difficult to try to find yourself in the shadow of RC1 and all that entailed. The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. Julie Anne and I have each explained our thoughts on the topic of this alcoholic pastor multiple times. I hope Sproul Jr gets help, but tbh his theology preaches such a hateful God that if I had to believe it Id turn to drink too. Its about time for another trip to Portland or Spokane to stock up again! (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Haha. I was very clear that R.C. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. I hope you can now see why I saw a joke in the typo. Two of them were guys showing out while drunk, but the others were victims of drunk drivers. But I was just there, I was always there never moving not flinching no matter what I was there. Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. Here is a lovely article by a Christian recovering alcoholic Heather about her journey as a Christian and an alcoholic. Why? But! With all of that information available, and with all that superstructure that is supposed to protect people (and it would have had the people listened), he still gets hired. Again, I realize that was not the point of the original argument. Have child protection services been properly notified and satisfied? Its not uncommon for conversations to turn sour when people who care deeply about a topic find themselves talking past each other. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. You werent part of a church as a leader. It was not about alcoholics in general, and it was certainly not about alcoholics who are in recovery or working toward that. 5, it is the opportunity Ive been looking for, as pastors dont really teach and preach about this much maybe that is part of the problem. One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. Alcohol abuse has played a part in that, yes, but RC Jr would have still been a spiritual bully and done the same things had he been a teetotaler too. Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. I would be interested in writing a post about. However, this particular distortion of guilt feelings can be complicated since authentic guilt may occur even if a person drinks without ever becoming drunk. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. But he stopped going to AA and we realized he was drinking again. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. One theme Im getting from your numerous replies, and in spite of your protests to the contrary, is that a persons alcoholism should out-weight all else, and excuse that person. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? It seems that most of us are in agreement that: I take Barbara and what she stated. Then, the preacher gets up and delivers a sermon with a title such as, How to Have a Successful Marriage.. At least, from the description. Not astounding to me. Lights Out: Drinking The Reformed KoolAid?. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. I dont think barbara was making a medical argument, though. I get that church is not just a building, its people. We certainly understand the issue as much as anybody. But I think we do agree on some things. You might like to listen to them. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people. I think we can do better though. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. So far no response. If I bailed them out every time they got into trouble theyd never learn that their bad choices have bad consequences. The obituary was featured in Orlando Sentinel on December 15, 2017. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. Weve all read your points over and over again. The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. Sproul was driving under the influence. But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. My goal is to get this thread back on track. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? all are attractive.). You cannot reason with them because they quite literally cannot think straight. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . Thanks, Okrapod, for posting the quote you were referring to. I have and it can be a beautiful thing. Please stop advocating for his children? Just think of him as the Mark Driscoll of his particular church/whatever denomination he may be claiming these days. Im wondering if a 2018 resolution will be about depravity or the elect???? 12 step recovery (which I noted above is being challenged as the dominant mode of alcohol and drug addiction recovery in the US) is still pretty widespread and its tenents are a spiritual awakening via the 12 steps, followed by maintenance of a spiritual program largely of humility, honesty and service to others. Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? I personally believe it was so he would not be a burden on us. Velour wrote: However, he does now have a permanent criminal record, and a felony record, no less. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. Everyone has a personal sin story and can relate to being separated from God at one time or another, but to take advantage of that personal sin account without repentance and restoration of important family/friend relationships makes Gods grace cheap. Vastly different things. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. of wine was effective in taking the edge of the pain so that I did not have to use any stronger pain medicines. We took him in to help in his recovery. You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. But here may be a hint. If so, how did the other impression get started and take hold, do you think? We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. I remember those days very well. I also think that his wife and children need help in living with a problem drinker and that the church should encourage them in this, as well as him getting treatment. I agree with this. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. Church Discipline Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. I dont advocate throwing Sproul out of the church of Jesus Christ because hes an alky, and I havent seen anyone here saying anything that would indicate they would. Sproul Jr. does need to be fired for his abusive conduct. Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? He said that his wife Rachelle said it. . Leave these people alone and repent.. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. 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